From Surviving to Thriving.

We're back! Tune into episode 5 of "We Have Lived," a podcast series by Not 9 to 5 about the lived experiences of working in restaurants and hospitality.

This week host Hassel Aviles chats with Jenny Shin, President & CEO of Milestones Public Relations and Talent Management. The discussion overs how to shift the industry culture,  how change is misunderstood, surviving medical emergencies, fostering compassion, overcoming shame and much more!

Jenny Shin is a notable figure in public relations, specializing in fine dining, hospitality, and reputation management. With a steadfast commitment to ethics and advocacy, Jenny guides Michelin star chefs and global restaurants toward realizing their aspirations, fostering positive advancements in the hospitality industry. Jenny is not just a CEO but a mentor, strategist, and advocate for authentic representation and ethical practices in public relations and hospitality. 

To learn more about Not 9 to 5 resources including workplace mental health certification called CNECTed, visit https://not9to5.org/cnecting.

"We Have Lived" is an exclusive 14-episode podcast series recorded in sister cities Chicago, USA and Toronto, Canada produced by Not 9 to 5 with direction from Terms of Service Network.

Credits
Production: Not 9 to 5 Organization
Production partner: Terms of Service
Executive Producer & Host: Hassel Aviles
Creative Director: Justin Arnett-Graham
Video: Rick Hernandez
Sound & Music Marcus Drake

Transcript

Hassel Aviles (00:12):

Hello everyone. We are back. I'm so excited to be here today with a very good close friend. As a reminder, I'm Hassel Aviles and you are listening to, "We Have Lived," a podcast by Not 9 to 5. The intention with the podcast is to learn from each other, and so I'm here to tell you about experiences I have lived. I want to hear stories and experiences that you have lived. And this podcast is here to share the experiences we have lived throughout the season. You're going to hear highs, lows, and everything in between. We may speak about mental health and substance use challenges. We may talk about other difficult topics. This will always happen through the lens of lived experience and intersectionality. And for those who I haven't met or who have never heard of Not 9 to 5, we are a nonprofit global leader in advocacy and education on mental health and substance use challenges for the hospitality and culinary industry.

(01:17):

Our communities include restaurants, bars, hotels, wineries, breweries and more. And I am the founding director of not nine to five. This nonprofit was created and developed for the industry to shift the workplace culture and to increase psychological safety in kitchens, bars, restaurants, and beyond. For too long, I remember even myself growing up, I was always told to check my shit at the door and very much encouraged to repress and suppress emotional experiences. So it's kind of cool to see our industry shift into a different stage where we are embracing vulnerability more and creating more open equitable environments. So we chose not nine to five as our name to really reflect the untraditional hours of the industry and the all consuming nature of mental health in our lives. As we all know, neither are confined to the hours of nine to five. So today I am so excited to be here with Jenny Shin. Jenny. I love when people introduce themselves versus me. Read your bio. I agree. Yeah, it's more natural and it's nice to reflect on our achievements. So that's a bit intro about me. Obviously I've grown up in the hospitality industry, worked in restaurants and bars since I was a teenager, moved into event production and now run this nonprofit hospitality adjacent. But Jenny, introduce yourself for us if you can.

Jenny Shin (02:58):

Okay, thank you. I run a PR agency based out of Toronto and a talent management agency. I think I have a bit of a unique perspective on the industry. Looking at it from the lens of, I guess the wizard behind the curtain. I'm that person or my team. We do damage control, reputation control, but also on a brighter note, we spend a lot of our efforts trying to promote social advocacy and make literally the workplace a better place. Starting from my own company internally, I try to practice what I preach. And so I think from the PR side of the business, we try to work with people whose values are aligned with ours. And specific to this topic today for restaurant hospitality, industry, mental health and all that stuff, we really try to work with people who together we can promote these good things. And then from the tele management side, we do represent quite a few chefs. And again, we try to make sure that we are representing a broad spectrum of talent. So we do go out of our way to work with bipoc chefs or marginalized communities and whatnot. So yeah,

Hassel Aviles (04:27):

I love that. That was an amazing intro and I can vouch for that. I've experienced, I've seen your work for so many years now, and you've been such a huge advocate and supporter of not nine to five. We definitely wouldn't be here without Jenny Shin. Oh, gosh. And so grateful to that. And I know that you are a technically hospitality adjacent, but you have been in and out of the industry. So I always like to start with a bit of an icebreaker. I want to hear from you a hospitality industry story of your own lived experience, ideally, obviously. And you have the choice of picking either funny, favorite or fucked up. We know that those all exist in the industry. Yes. But yes, tell us a hospitality story if you can. Oh gosh.

Jenny Shin (05:23):

Okay. I will give you all three. So love it. Simultaneously. So one of my very, very first food clients, when I first started the company, it was a small restaurant and I wanted to break into the industry representing restaurants specifically such a huge passion of mine and the client. He didn't really understand what PR was. And so yeah, I remember just doing every possible task and duty. And I think in retrospect now, I'm so grateful for that because it gave me a firsthand look at the back of house, in front of house dynamic and some of the really inherently wrong things about what happens. And he put me to work sometimes as a dishwasher, and I was like, no, this is not what I do. I didn't do my post-grad PR to be washing your dishes because it broke down, or I played mc at all the special events. Oh my God,

Hassel Aviles (06:30):

He threw you in.

Jenny Shin (06:32):

Yeah, I had to hand wrap all the prizes for the raffle things. It was, but it was so fun at the same time,

Hassel Aviles (06:41):

You got to know everything, intimately firsthand

Jenny Shin (06:44):

And just I guess the whole culture of, I guess self-medicating through substance use and stuff after hours, looking at the dynamic with the staff, everything's just an adrenaline rush during service. It was a small business, but it was a very busy restaurant. And so just seeing how they coped with that pressure and all those things, it was really, for me, a learning curve.

Hassel Aviles (07:12):

I love that story so much. It's very relatable. It reminds me of my twenties in restaurants where you're just thrown in to do anything and everything, whether it's your job or not. And so, yeah, that's very relatable, I think for a lot of folks that I've worked in restaurants. So we're going to get into some topics that may be challenging or difficult, but I want to kick us off with where you are currently these days. And I'm curious, obviously milestones has changed so much over the years, and our careers are always changing, obviously, but right now these days, what are a few favorite aspects in your career?

Jenny Shin (07:54):

I feel like I'm at the best place ever in my career or my life right now. So oh my God, that's incredible. And we always talk about this, we do do. We're always reaching for that, and I'm sure things will also get better from here on in, but just I feel like all the things that we talk about herself to make our lives better and other people's lives better, I'm more frequently practicing these things and that it's not the sexiest solution. It's not like an aha answer. It's just really pragmatic. Just practice what you preach.

Hassel Aviles (08:33):

But you know what? It's such an easy thing to say, and it is such a fricking hard thing to do. I always say it's one thing to understand theoretically, the ideas of self-care, the ideas of equitable leadership, all these ideas, they're very easy and simple to wrap your head around to practice on the other hand though, is a very different story. So I love that you're kind of being very transparent and honest about No, I'm actually in practice of so many things that we talk about.

Jenny Shin (09:10):

I mean, I hear your voice in my head all the time.

Hassel Aviles (09:13):

Yeah. Like I said, full transparency. Jenny and I are friends. We are close, close friends. I've never, yeah, this is like conversations we always have, but now we just happen to be recording this one,

(09:25):

Which is amazing. But I love having these conversations with you because you do have so many different perspectives, and you do have access to so many different insights. I always learn something from talking to you because you always will remind me. But yeah, this is how they see it though. And it's a perspective that I may not have considered when it comes to business owners, chefs or industry leaders. These conversations can get tricky. And I think the more perspectives that I've gained now, the more of a well-rounded perspective I have. So I am very grateful to you for that. The last couple of years, there's been so many changes in our industry. Anybody who works in restaurants or bars, hotels, et cetera, knows this to be true. Can you share in your opinion, which ones stand out the most

Jenny Shin (10:11):

To you? I think during the pandemic, I mean, so many things just were cracked open. It was the Pandora's box from hell, but also with lots of silver linings. I think for me, I feel like the pandemic really was the instigator for so many things to change because I think we just all hit a breaking point where it's like, it's not working and this is it. This is the end of the line. Either we change things or we're just all going to go to hell. So I love that with the whole, oh my God, I've already forgotten the term.

Hassel Aviles (10:54):

Which term?

Jenny Shin (10:55):

People leaving on mass?

Hassel Aviles (10:57):

Oh, the great resignation.

Jenny Shin (10:58):

Yes, the great resignation. Yes. Yes.

Hassel Aviles (11:00):

I always talk about that. Yes.

Jenny Shin (11:02):

I think that's one of the best things that have ever happened to our industry and also just worldwide across all disciplines. It's the generation's way of saying, why do we have to pay our dues? Or why do we have to suffer? Previous generations did. We can change the rules. We can rewrite the book. And I love the courage of this generation, and you can be bitter or whatever, but the fact is they're improving quality of lives for future generations as well.

Hassel Aviles (11:34):

Oh, I love this so much. This is definitely one of my favorite parts of the last couple years, the intolerance for what we used to put up with in our younger days in this industry. But

Jenny Shin (11:49):

Aren't we supposed to evolve?

Hassel Aviles (11:50):

Exactly.

Jenny Shin (11:52):

And like, okay, fine. So you walk to school or to work uphill twice in a big snowstorm, whatever. But I mean, if you could, wouldn't you want our children or the next generation to have it easier to ease their suffering,

Hassel Aviles (12:05):

Right? Yeah. Instead of, unfortunately, there are still some industry leaders that are coming from a place of I had to suffer. So you have to as well.

Jenny Shin (12:14):

Exactly.

Hassel Aviles (12:15):

And it is crabs in a bucket, which we always say, right? The crabs in the bucket analogy is so accurate, unfortunately still to this day. So if you had all of the power, if I just gifted you all of the power, Jenny, what is one factor you'd immediately change?

Jenny Shin (12:36):

I would ban pineapple on all pizzas. No, just kidding. I actually do love pineapple on pizza. So no, I take that back.

Hassel Aviles (12:43):

No more Hawaiians pizzas anymore.

Jenny Shin (12:47):

I had all the power.

Hassel Aviles (12:48):

Gosh, you're so cute.

Jenny Shin (12:53):

I think I would hold a mirror to all the offenders of just, oh gosh, the plethora of all the bad things, like those

Hassel Aviles (13:08):

That cause harm, perpetrators of abuse and exploitation.

Jenny Shin (13:12):

I would hold up a mirror to them, and that's it. I don't need to do anything. I would just wish that they would see themselves.

Hassel Aviles (13:18):

That's even better than revenge. Just see yourself from, yeah,

Jenny Shin (13:26):

And I mean, it would be their choice to action or ignore after that. I don't think all people are people. I don't think all people are capable of self-reflection or change, but I think most people are. I still have faith in that, in humanity, but I think for whatever reasons, there are always going to be a token number of people who are sociopaths or, you know what I mean? There's nothing you can do about it. And it's just unfortunate, I think when you recognize that you just need to stay out of harm's way. But I think for the most part, people are good, and I have to believe that

Hassel Aviles (14:04):

This is why I love you. You're so wise to see that. And I know that everything you're saying, we've talked about how many people have hurt us, harmed us, bullied us, tried to destroy us in every way possible, and yet still here we remain with this kind of insight and this kind of wisdom. And I just think it's so important to share that there's a lot of people that go through things, and instead it creates a lot of spite or it creates a lot of, and I just think I really relate to what you're saying and holding the mirror up. I wish I could do that to certain

Jenny Shin (14:42):

People. Yeah. Oh gosh, that would be so powerful. But I always have to remind myself that I'm not always good, you know what I mean? And I've been a mean girl.

Hassel Aviles (14:54):

Same.

Jenny Shin (14:56):

I don't have proud moments all the time. So I think it's just when you can self-reflect and really be honest with yourself, and I always say, when you know better, you do better. If you don't know better, then how are you supposed to be expected to change?

Hassel Aviles (15:14):

Oh, one hundred percent. I think that a lot of people don't change because of that. They genuinely don't know how. They're literally unequipped with the skills and the education or the information or support even to change. Change is so misunderstood. I think we have a lot of misconceptions and myths around change and how change actually works, especially in human behavior. And I think that is a very good point. I think all of us are complicit in upholding absolutely a lot of the way things are, including myself. And I think it's important to always try to stay aware of that and reflect on that. And you're right. In our past, of course, I have things I'm not entirely proud of. And I know for a fact I've harmed people along the way. And you're right, I've been given the chance and the support to access more information, education and support for change. And so, yeah, of course, I would want that for those that have harmed me too.

Jenny Shin (16:23):

And it's all a part of that whole learning process. I mean, old me would've been beating myself up being like, you're a terrible person. How could you suck? But it just defeats the purpose. What is the point? Right? It's not

Hassel Aviles (16:36):

Helpful.

Jenny Shin (16:37):

Recognize, okay, that was a shitty thing that you did, and stop doing that. Yeah, right. Yeah, I love that. And also try to do better, teach others not to do that same shitty thing that you did to others.

Hassel Aviles (16:48):

So

Jenny Shin (16:49):

Yeah,

Hassel Aviles (16:50):

I love that. And forgiveness is so important for ourselves. I don't think you always have to forgive everyone else, but I do think forgiving yourself is very important to continue to keep going in learning and things. Okay. So if anyone's ever followed Jenny Shin on Instagram, they will see a very glamorous, it looks like a nonstop party of culinary experiences and lavish parties. And it looks, and I know social media is always like that. It's not just yours. I'm not just picking on you all. Social media is like an illusion, and it just all looks so fabulous, which it is because I've joined you in some of those experiences. So they are

Jenny Shin (17:36):

Fabulous. But the thing is, that is actually a reflection of my real life. I

Hassel Aviles (17:39):

I know.

Jenny Shin (17:40):

Literally every day.

Hassel Aviles (17:41):

Every day, I can vouch for that

Jenny Shin (17:44):

Oh my gosh.

Hassel Aviles (17:45):

But I also know that there's some challenging aspects that go with that. So give us a little bit of insight. I think I'm going to be talking mostly to people that are culinary hospitality professionals, but you're in PR supporting the industry. What are some challenging aspects of the work you do that most aren't aware of?

Jenny Shin (18:04):

I think for me, what was the most surprising thing working with talent is, I mean, they are supposed to be confident and in the spotlight and center stage all the time. And there is expectation from them to be performing all the time. And as somebody who works from behind the scenes, I really feel for them, I have so much empathy for them that sometimes they'll be perceived as being cocky or whatever, but it's like you kind of have to be successful in this industry. And also people have no idea how insecure talent are. Right.

Hassel Aviles (18:50):

Can you say more on that?

Jenny Shin (18:52):

Sure. I mean

Hassel Aviles (18:54):

Give us an example, what do you mean?

Jenny Shin (18:56):

There's this one celebrity chef that we represent, and they exude confidence, exuberance, all those good things, but behind the scenes, they are so vulnerable and so sensitive in a beautiful way, but you have no idea how many times I've talked them off the ledge, even for a simple photo shoot or an appearance on daytime television every single time. And it just makes me realize that you can knock whatever celebrities or whatever on TV or on Netflix, but really just try to look at the world, even the most famous, most wealthiest successful people through a lens of compassion, because they are humans after all, and they weren't born like a mega celebrity or famous or whatever.

(19:55):

They're literally just humans like us. And to sort of go off on a tangent, it always makes me think of back in the day when Brittany was falling apart, or even Megan Fox, people were slut shaming her and stuff. I was exactly one of those people jumping on that bandwagon being like, oh my God, Brittany's such a hot mess. Ew, look at her. And Megan Fox, oh my God, she's so trashy, whatever, blah, blah. And then it was during the pandemic when all these things started coming out, and I was just like, I sat in shame for weeks. Like, oh my God, I'm getting emotional about this. I feel so sorry. I am so deeply regretful of the bullshit that came out of my mouth. And it was just the conversations with friends they will never hear. But that's not the point. I am just so ashamed of what a shitty person I was to add to that. And it collectively through millions of people exactly like me, had Brittany. You know what I mean? Just fall apart publicly. And Megan Fox had to work so hard to rebuild her relationship. She was a 15-year-old actress being like, just, that's young, right? Anyways, so that's kind of what I'm referring to when I say we really, really have to look at everyone through the lens of compassion. You are being part of the problem if you're not standing up for really justice and truth and all those good things.

Hassel Aviles (21:25):

Jenny, thank you so much for sharing that. I find that is so true and so relevant right now because I feel like there's still so much judgment on everyone, ourselves, celebrities, everyone, and it doesn't help us. It's only harmful. It's never helpful.

Jenny Shin (21:47):

It's so toxic.

Hassel Aviles (21:48):

It's so toxic. That's the perfect word for it. It's so toxic. And I think if you can come from a place of, we never know what people are going through, or we never know someone's full story, so who am I to say X, Y, or Z about them? I think when we can come from a place like that for others, it is just so important. There's just so much that we'll never know. And especially for celebrities. I mean, we see a tiny little glimpse of their lives, and it, of course, it's so easy to trash a celebrity and shred them. But this idea of also letting yourself feel shame, shame is not helpful to hang onto. But I do think there is something to be learned sometimes from actually

Jenny Shin (22:33):

Absolutely

Hassel Aviles (22:34):

Letting yourself feel it. The

Jenny Shin (22:36):

Whole purpose of shame existing is for you to learn because uncomfortable to sit or stew in that really just uncomfortable, almost self horror.

(22:48):

But it instigates change. It does. So I think shame can be very, very productive and useful and beneficial if you, I think use it in the right way.

Hassel Aviles (23:01):

And I agree with you that it only tends to stick and happen if you let yourself feel it.

Jenny Shin (23:07):

Yes.

Hassel Aviles (23:09):

Not stay in that place, but just have whatever moments need to happen. There's a famous hedge fund manager who I follow, his name's Ray Dalio, and he wrote a book called Principles. I've referenced it before on this podcast. And one of my favorite quotes from his book is, pain Plus Reflection equals progress. And I just find it's always true when there's pain and you're willing to sit and reflect on that pain or shame, in this case, leaning into the discomfort, that's when we do actually evolve. And progress and grow.

Jenny Shin (23:51):

Exactly, I love that

Hassel Aviles (23:51):

We're learning. You can't have one without the other a hundred percent to move forward. You can live in the pain or you can reflect on other things, but to have them together, it sounds like that's what you had in that moment. And it does. It really shifts us. It's amazing how you can't unsee something once you've seen it.

(24:19):

So thank you for sharing that. That is so helpful. And I think that it's so important to be self-aware like that, but also tell those stories. It's not easy to talk about things that we've done that we're ashamed of. And I really respect that you're willing to share that with us today. So Jenny, I've known you for a bunch of years, and I've gone through so many things. Oh, God. Now obviously we're not going to talk about all of them today. Oh gosh. There's just too many ups and downs. But I do want to acknowledge something that happened two years ago, almost two years ago. So on November 3rd, 2021, a day, neither of us will ever forget, but obviously mostly for you, you survived two deadly medical emergencies within minutes to each other. I call you a walking miracle. I still can't believe what happened. And witnessing your recovery has truly been one of the most incredible experiences of my life. Can you share with those listening your perspectives and feelings and that come up when you reflect on the last two years?

Jenny Shin (25:36):

Years? Oh gosh. I mean, you call it a miracle. I dunno. I call it like a freak of nature. I don't know. Literally, I still can't believe that I'm alive. So November 3rd, 2021, I was having a stroke in the car while my sister was driving it. And we went through a couple of mishaps along the way to the hospital, and we finally got to the hospital I was supposed to end up at. But before getting there, while I was having the stroke, I actually fell out of the car. I didn't realize I was paralyzed on one side. And so the dead weight kind of just naturally shifted my body and ended up falling out and landing on my head, and I broke my neck. I broke my C2 and C4 on cervical spine, and it was pretty intense. And then I got to the hospital and they performed emergency wake brain surgery.

(26:32):

But it was just a lot of people ask me if I was scared or if I was traumatized. I mean, I'm sure there is some trauma. I mean, it's a pretty major thing that happened. But to be honest, in the moments that I was experiencing this, I was actually blown away by the fact that even though my body was broken and literally dying, it was actively dying because it, I didn't get help until four hours later. And by that time, by all scientific measures, your brain's going to be pretty much dead, or you'll be left with some very lifelong deficits and whatnot. But yeah, so I just remember thinking funny enough about this Ted Talk that I'd listened to near the beginning when Ted Talk first came out, and it was a neurologist, I think her name is Jill Taylor, and her talk was called My Stroke of Insight.

(27:32):

So yeah. And I remember thinking how self-actualize you have to be, be going through your own stroke and being excited about it as a neurologist, she was like, oh my God, I have to remember everything. This is fantastic. And she was just like, what? I'm listening to this Ted Talk. I'm like, I am so blown away by this woman. Oh my God. And then so fast forward to 2021, and I'm having this stroke, and I'm like, oh my God, I had the same opportunity as that Ted Talk woman. Oh my God. And I just thought, okay, I dunno what's going to happen. You have no control of the situation, but just try to remember everything about this. And so I literally documented, I guess frame by frame mentally in my head, everything that happened. I heard everything that was going on. I saw, I guess, from what I could with a broken neck. But yeah. So yeah, it was pretty bonkers.

Hassel Aviles (28:31):

But you felt very present.

Jenny Shin (28:32):

Yes. I mean, I felt the pain for my neck and stuff, but funny enough, I almost felt kind of sedated or numb to some degree, but, but fast forward, I guess. So it happened in November, and then I actually made a full recovery five months later. I know. Freak of nature.

Hassel Aviles (28:58):

No, you had to learn how to talk again, walk again. These are not casual things that people go through. It's been amazing to see. I remember the first time I saw you post that day how you were moving and talking even to when in front of you right now. I mean, it's so drastically incredible what the human body can do to heal and recover.

Jenny Shin (29:27):

Oh my gosh. The miracle of neuroplasticity and neurogenesis. But also, I mean, the doctors at Sunnybrook, they were just, oh my God,

Hassel Aviles (29:38):

You had amazing support.

Jenny Shin (29:39):

They didn't just save my life. They gave me back quality of life. And I think if anything, the best thing that came out of that was the change in perspective.

Hassel Aviles (29:51):

Say more.

Jenny Shin (29:52):

Well, it is given me pretty much no fear. I just give zero fucks now, to be honest. I

Hassel Aviles (30:04):

Always say that my favorite part of getting older is I've got no more fucks to give. I've run out.

Jenny Shin (30:10):

Exactly.

Hassel Aviles (30:11):

Exactly. But I can imagine even more so coming out of a life changing experience like

Jenny Shin (30:15):

That. I'm not afraid of even physical harm or, well, I mean, yes, but it doesn't dominate. So I think I've found this new courage to live just really, really live. Right? And it's a cliche, but you just never know, right? I mean, who would've thought at age 47, I would have a stroke? I was literally partying it up the night before, and I went and saw friends every day before that. And it was just business as usual, like brunch and dinner, of course, whatever,

Hassel Aviles (30:53):

Living your best life.

Jenny Shin (30:55):

And then it all came to a sudden standstill in that moment. So I mean, there's something to be said about when you age and what you were saying, just you've got no fucks left to give.

Hassel Aviles (31:13):

Right? It's such a beautiful thing.

Jenny Shin (31:13):

It is. We spend so much of our lives living for others.

Hassel Aviles (31:17):

I would argue most of my life.

Jenny Shin (31:19):

No one gives a fuck about you, correct. Honestly. Correct. When they go to bed at night, are they're like, I wonder if she's actually that thin in real life, or if that was a filtered photo, or does anyone care? No. No one gives fucks. Right? So you might as well live your life the way you want to.

Hassel Aviles (31:35):

I love hearing that that's what you've walked away with. I think it's important. I think I hate that that happened to you. And also I do. I love that reminder. I've lost friends before way too young. And grief is so complicated. Loss is so complicated, and I'm so grateful that that was not what happened that day, but it definitely triggered me

(32:04):

Because there was a couple hours there where we didn't know if you were going to be okay or not.

Jenny Shin (32:09):

I heard about that after I was like, oh my God.

Hassel Aviles (32:11):

Obviously you had a very different memory of that day, obviously, and I'll just never forget that feeling of that reminder. That happens every time. I think we get close to grief or actually do experience grief of what you just said of you never know. We never know how long we have. And that fragility of life, it's fascinating how it can actually help us live a more fulfilled life. You would think if you think about death or if you experience death around you, that it would deter or destroy. I've had the opposite experience, even though I've lost so many people way too young in this case, thankfully, did not lose you, but watched you go through this super intense life experience, that reminder of the fragility of life. I'm always so grateful to that reminder, because you're right, we mostly go through life forgetting and taking it for granted and feeling invincible, and I'll be fine. I'm always going to be fine. And we just don't know that that is true. And so I really appreciate that reminder and your perspective on even just how you felt throughout that whole experience. So thank you for sharing that.

Jenny Shin (33:38):

Good times.

Hassel Aviles (33:41):

I mean, now it is. Yes.

Jenny Shin (33:43):

Yes.

Hassel Aviles (33:44):

I will say I feel like you are living your best life now.

Jenny Shin (33:47):

I am

Hassel Aviles (33:48):

Definitely. I feel like your career is completely flourished, and you're definitely, it seems like taking more control of,

Jenny Shin (33:57):

Actually, you know what the best part is my whole life, I think I've been living one nonstop existential crisis. And I mean that in every literal sense. I've always been a student philosophy. I've always been in my head so far, just even though on surface, people would be like, oh, Jenny, she's like, happy go lucky, Jenny, whatever. But I've always sort of suffered from the whole existential questions of why am I here and what is the meaning of all this? What's the point? Everything just feels so small or everything's too big or whatever. But I think this experience really just catapulted me into a completely different place where it's like, it doesn't matter. You don't get a prize at the end for figuring it out. So it's kind of like, I love Alan Watts, the philosopher. He compares it to a symphony. If the prize were going to the person who can rush through the symphony the fastest and the simplest clash at the end, then I guess that conductor would be the best. But that's not the point. It's to be immersed and live in the music, and you wait for the flute, and then you wait for the violin. And it's just all those things together, that is the point, not sort of like why. Right? So anyways, I think that's really been the biggest change for me. That cloud that's always been hovering in my peripheral is completely dissipated.

Hassel Aviles (35:33):

Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. I just so appreciate you openly talking about that. I know. I love you. I love you too. Oh my God. We're like, we can't move away from our mics too much. But I know trying to hug each other, but we can't. Oh my God. For those that can't see, that's what's happening. No, I love you so much, and I'm just so grateful you're still here to tell the story.

Jenny Shin (35:57):

Thank you.

Hassel Aviles (35:59):

So as we move looking to the future, you and I have talked so much about the past and how we got to where we are today in this industry and society and life in general, even our own individual personal stories. We have so many similarities and hardships, very similar negative experiences that we've gone through. But one thing I love doing with you too is also the opposite, I guess, of reflecting back, but looking to the future and re-imagining a different future. Because I think that's one thing we have in common is I think sometimes people think like, oh, this is just the way it is, and they accept it. I'm not one of those two. Oh, hell no. I refuse to accept, and I'm always challenging the status quo. But I think you have that in you too, I think, but

Jenny Shin (36:54):

In a different way.

Hassel Aviles (36:56):

Totally different. Of course, we're very different people, but I think that you are also someone that looks to the future. Absolutely. And doesn't just accept everything the way it is currently. So I'm curious, what do you find yourself focusing on as you look to the future in your career, in your work?

Jenny Shin (37:19):

To me, career is no longer really important. I know that sounds crazy, but

Hassel Aviles (37:24):

No, it's amazing. Tell us more.

Jenny Shin (37:27):

I feel like humans in general, globally, they focus so much on three things, like career slash money, family, and I guess having a network or having material things. I guess that's more than three things. But anyways, and I feel like it's completely back. So career is important, I guess if you're just fresh out of school or that kind of thing. But I feel like the importance that's placed on it, it is so self-defeating in that I think what we should be focusing on is what we're passionate about and why are we passionate about it? Because you and I are passionate about this industry, but for very different reasons maybe, or you know what I mean? So try to identify that and try to develop that as opposed to what will be stable, what will make me money? You can work at the same company for 20 years and get laid off one day, and what was it all for? Right? So you might as well do something that you love, you might get screwed over anyways. Right. I think I totally stole that from Jim Carey. But anyways,

Hassel Aviles (38:47):

That's okay.

Jenny Shin (38:50):

I completely lost my train of thought there.

Hassel Aviles (38:52):

No, that's okay.

Jenny Shin (38:53):

So

Hassel Aviles (38:53):

If you don't want to, you're right. There is so much more to our lives in richness, in layers, in levels outside of just career, obviously that is just one aspect of our lives. But even I guess then,

Jenny Shin (39:10):

Oh, yes,

Hassel Aviles (39:10):

If we want to Thank you.

Jenny Shin (39:11):

Bringing me back,

Hassel Aviles (39:14):

Where do you find yourself focusing on then or when you look to the future of the industry then, if you don't want to look at it entirely through the lens of career, which I agree with you, it's much more interesting to take a broader look at this. Yeah. What do you find?

Jenny Shin (39:29):

Well, for me, in the past, my agency has been so just dependent on me to be in existence pretty much for starters. But I've developed the business and I've evolved it so that I don't have to be present for everything. And I've worked really hard to develop my team, and I'm finally in that place now where I can delegate and let go. And we talk about delegating, delegating all the time. I mean, how many years have we been talking about this.

Hassel Aviles (40:02):

Yes. It's so hard.

Jenny Shin (40:04):

Right? It's so hard to do. But it's just, I think when you give less fucks you actually literally give less fucks. It's like, I mean, the other day, my right hand, I guess, or my key person in my company, she finally sent out her first press release with her name from her email to the press, and we were joking about it, saying, okay, so this is your first one, so just make sure you have the basic things correct, like the date for starters. Ha. And she sent out the press release and the date was wrong. And I think she was so mortified, but I texted her and I was just like, ha ha, you totally screwed up the date. But it's okay. And I tell everybody I hire, you're going to fuck up. You're going to fuck up lots. Hopefully not too big. But even those, it's expected. So don't act shocked and just remember it's going to be okay. I won't be mad. Just don't make the same fuck up again. But you just kind of have to laugh at these things. Anyways, so it's

Hassel Aviles (41:13):

So true.

Jenny Shin (41:14):

All that to say, I think I'm finally in a place where I don't have to spend so much of my energy and time in running the business, and it gives me now more bandwidth to do things in a more elevated way for things that I care about. I mean, my business, absolutely. I cared about all the things like advocating for abolishing unpaid internships or hiring bipoc talent and all those things. But I think for me now, it's exciting. To be honest, I actually don't know what the next thing is. And it's really cool because my whole life I've regimented and the goal set and all those things, and it's just like that's boring. To be standing here at almost 50 being like, I don't know what's next. It's really freaking exciting.

Hassel Aviles (42:04):

It is.

Jenny Shin (42:05):

It's like an adventure,

Hassel Aviles (42:06):

I think so. Oh, I love hearing that you feel that way too. I am in a very similar situation

(42:13):

Of the unknown. I know that I want to do other things eventually. Even this podcast, it's such a dream of mine, and it's so fun to explore and play around and get to sit down with such incredible industry leaders. But yeah, it's a very vulnerable thing to explore things that you're not necessarily amazing at, and you're stumbling along the way. And I love that you were saying you give your staff the room to make mistakes. I mean, what you're describing is it's an aspect of psychological safety. When you're allowing people to make mistakes without penalizing them or punishing them, and instead acknowledging mistakes for what they are, which is a natural part of the learning process, it actually will help people get more innovative and creative, and it will also enable them and encourage them to feel like they can come to you no matter what. Exactly. Right. Because when you have a fear environment, people are too afraid to do that. Then they're like, oh, I'm going to get fired, or I'm going to get in trouble. And the beauty of keeping this openness around mistakes, it actually benefits your business also more than anything else.

Jenny Shin (43:28):

Yeah. I mean, I hope that they mimic that model and they're transparent with our clients as well, and turn.

Hassel Aviles (43:36):

Yeah. No, that's so beautiful. It's important. Alright, we're going to move into our last final question. So actually speaking of what we were just talking about, being vulnerable and doing things that you may not be excelling at or amazing at yet. So my final question to all guests is around this idea of an FFT. So Dr. Brene Brown kind of coined this term. FFT, which stands for fucking first time and FFTs are things we all experience. We all do things sometimes for the first time and it feels very fucking uncomfortable. There are experiences where it can feel scary or vulnerable. You feel out of sorts. And sometimes when, in our case where we're in our multi-decade career, it still happens. It doesn't mean just because you've been doing something for 10, 20 or more years that you're not still having these experiences. So I'm curious if you know what your latest FFT?

Jenny Shin (44:39):

Oh, it happens all the time. It's the nature of my business.

Hassel Aviles (44:43):

Okay. So tell us, how do you manage FFTs

Jenny Shin (44:46):

With lots of resilience. I mean, to be in pr, you literally have to become an expert in whatever commodity or industry that you're representing. You have to provide counsel to the top executives or to the founders or whatever of this company or organization. And so for example, I was working with a cannabis company in the past, and I am not a big fan of that just because my body doesn't really like it. Sure. I mean, to be honest, I've tried. I've really valiantly tried, but no, it just anyways, TMI. But yeah, so I didn't really know much about it and much less the politics and the legality surrounding it. This was right when it was being legalized in Canada and the laws were shifting constantly. There was just so much to learn.

Hassel Aviles (45:40):

Definitely.

Jenny Shin (45:41):

I spent three days not sleeping, just reading everything, going through so much video footage on news and stuff like that. And I became an expert literally overnight, and I'm really proud of that. But also, it's kind of like when you're in school and you have to study for exams. After I finished with that client, I forgot all of the things that I had learned. I don't know why it is, but because it's constant, I think. Right. And then I have to move on to the next thing. So I rep a spirits company and I had to learn everything there is to know about gin overnight. Right. I mean, that was a lot more fun. I do love gin, so there was a lot of experimenting and stuff. But yeah, I think it's ingrained in me. I always think I am not in PR because I'm good at it. I think I inevitably ended up doing this because I tend to gravitate towards all the things that are required to be excellent in pr.

Hassel Aviles (46:43):

Yeah, I think you definitely found your niche. Oh yeah. That you just naturally have these strengths and they happen to serve your career incredibly well. Yeah. I love that. Well, that is a wrap for all the questions I have for you, Jenny.

Jenny Shin (47:01):

Can we just turn this off and just keep talking? Oh my God. Because we can we talk for hours? Oh my God. Yeah.

Hassel Aviles (47:07):

It's actually very hard for me to only limit this to this time. I know. But I am going to end on a note of just saying thank you to the Drake Hotel because we are currently in Toronto and we are recording in a hotel room with the hotel that has been generously donated to the podcast and to not nine to five. So I did want to give them a shout out and want to thank you, Jenny, for showing up. Thank you. It's always such a pleasure and for sharing all of your stories of everything you have lived

Jenny Shin (47:48):

And thank you himself for literally everything that you do from this podcast to just living, breathing, and walking. Everything that you preach about all the time, you're honestly probably one of the most consistent people to just live what you preach.

Hassel Aviles (48:07):

That means the world to me.

Jenny Shin (48:08):

Thank you. That's why you're permanently that voice in the back of my head.

Hassel Aviles (48:12):

You're not the only person that's told me that God, which I think is hilarious. I can't believe that I have people in my life who hear my voice in their ears.

Jenny Shin (48:21):

 Now there'll be many more people. Literally with your voice in their head through the podcast. Congratulations.

Hassel Aviles (48:27):

Oh, I hope so. That's funny. I don't know how I feel about that. But thank you to everyone who's listened this the whole way through. And yeah, I'll see you at the next episode of "We Have Lived."